Don’t be talkin’ trash about mah boyfriend

Here’s a hypothetical.

Let’s say you’re not crazy about your best friend’s boyfriend. He has done some things of which you don’t approve. And let’s say that your friend breaks up with her boyfriend, and proceeds to complain about him to you. You might be tempted to open the floodgates and tell her what an asshole you have always thought he was. After all, she started it. And if she started it, then it must be okay.

Trouble with that is that the next thing you know, she’s back together with him, and now you’ve been heard talking trash about your friend’s boyfriend.

Maybe it’s your fault for seeing a crevice and turning it into a cravasse. Or maybe, just maybe, your friend shouldn’t have opened the door in the first place.

I should have thought about that before talking trash about my own “boyfriend”. Well not exactly talking trash. But raising questions. Questions that can be seen as an invitation to open those floodgates.

So, chalk it up to a learning experience. Now I know why Jews are not “allowed” to question Israel’s actions with respect to the ongoing dispute with those who would lay claim to the land which was theirs from the beginning of recorded time, without incurring the wrath of fellow Jews. Now I know why the support of Israel must be an all or nothing proposition. Now I know why the rabbi at my temple is so widely criticized for encouraging debate on the topic of Israel’s use of violence to defend their turf.

There simply is no room for a Jew to open up that debate. The market is cornered by those who would put words in our mouths about blah blah blah the Holocaust, as if any Jew ever offered the Holocaust as a reason for any military action by Israel, as if Israel were motivated by nothing more than vengeance against an absent third party.

We never said that. And really, it just obscures the real issues.

Give an inch, some will take a yard. Leave the door open a crack, let the looters pillage. It’s sad really. I will stick to yoga and housewife talk from now on, lest I see anymore ugliness for which I am ill prepared.

Happy New Year!

YC

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43 Responses to Don’t be talkin’ trash about mah boyfriend

  1. BeBe says:

    Laksmi, I think I can reasonably say that in spite of your unfortunate and hateful remarks about a people and ethnic group that has survived in spite of such continued and unremitting hate, YC and I both forgive you in the spirit of the New Year, and we hope you now have a wake up call to rehink your bigotry and hatred of the people of Israel and the rest of us Jews.

    Shalom,

    BeBe

  2. laksmi says:

    Bebe,
    whatever. I did not make ANY hateful remarks about any ethnic people or group. you are just looking to have a chip knocked off your shoulder. You are wishing for ‘unremitting hate’ and I won’t give it to you. You know nothing about who I am or what I do, so piss off. And don’t speak for YC as far as forgiving me goes. There’s nothing to forgive me for. And I don’t need your blessed forgiveness. I am not a bigot with hatred for the people of Israel–hate the sin, love the sinner, ever heard of that? I don’t like the state of israel. i don’t like all the money the u.s. gives to them for their military. I don’t like the way the U.S just rolls over no matter what israel does. nobody is ‘right’ in any of this. it’s just another version of the same old thing. Go ahead and paint it as black and white as you want, and call people bigots and whatever. That’s just you hoping to stop a debate. I’m still going to say what I’m going to say. You’re still going to think I’m a bigot. I don’t care.

  3. laksmi says:

    oh, and is there anything wrong with ‘sharing’?

  4. laksmi says:

    and one more thing. we all know that the real reason for the israel-palestinian conflict is so that yc can blog about it and increase her stats. Pretty shrewd, yc.

  5. BeBe says:

    OK, Laksmi, sorry I spoke for YC. I just feel as if I can predict the way she thinks very well. I believe I have some very special and unique connection with her.

    But maybe you are right. Maybe she doesn’t forgive you after all, but I’ll bet she supports the US’s aid to Israel. (I suppose you would rather it go to Iran.)

    Unfortunately, you just don’t get it.

    BeBe

  6. laksmi says:

    Why not visit MY BLOG.

  7. cranky housefrau says:

    hey, Bebe, i know Laksmi, and she isn’t anti-semitic. I am going to take a guess that you are from the same generation as my parents. a generation so close to the holocaust that any challenge to the state of israel is seen as anti-semitic. a generation that sees the actions that israel takes as totally acceptable under any and all circumstanses. my parents are also disturbingly anti-muslim.
    having grown up in this household i held the same beliefs that my parents did until one day i heard a news story on NPR about the the Jews in the west bank going into palestinian olive groves at night and hacking down the trees. i can’t even put into words how obscene i feel this is and what an affront to God i think this is. and what’s more, i can’t be part of a religion that claims this land as part of deal they made with God, and then so blatantly violate and support the violation of one of God’s BIG TEN that says THOU SHALL NOT KILL.
    i find American Zionism very interesting. i have spent a lot of time in israel. my grandparents were real Zionists. they fled the holocaust to chicago and then moved to israel. they took israel warts and all. what i find to be so funny about American zionists is that none of them would want to live there. and there really wouldn’t be a place for them either. israel is so divided between the very religious, which most American’s find offensive, and totally secular. there is no place for american jews in israel. yet the Jewish people continue to insist that this is “our” land.
    you can go ahead and call me a self hating Jew, aunt Bebe, but i assure you i am not. i just have no tolerance for a relgion or people who support killing in the name of God.

  8. boodiba says:

    Oh jeez. And here I was thinking that YC had a boyfriend on the side.

  9. BeBe says:

    To Cranky Housefrau,

    It looks like you have Judaism mixed up with Islam.

    I don’t condone unwarranted violence. I never said Israelis or any other nation or group is perfect. Your comment reflects that you latched on to one of those negative instances for your own psychological needs.

    I do admire Israel’s incredible success as a nation, in the face of all of the hostility that anything Jewish engenders. I disagree that there is no place for an American Jew in Israel. If I needed to go there as a refuge from anti-semitism, the doors would be open to me — and even to you.

    My father went to medical school in Germany. In 1933, he lived through the time when Hitler came into power. He saw the violence — the beatings among other things. He and all of his fellow American Jewish medical students were forced
    to return home. He spoke out about the violence to Jewish groups here, but they denied it was possible. Cranky, I think you would have been one of the deniers. Laksmi is merely an ignoramus; you are in denial.

    Crank, I hope you rethink your position and get some therapy got your “crankiness.”

    BeBe (not Aunt Bubba)

  10. BeBe says:

    Hey YC,

    I will be traveling northeast and can be in Westchester during October. Can we get together and talk about the state of the world -coffee, kasha, and compost?

    Your BFF,

    BeBe

  11. cranky housefrau says:

    Bebe,
    i assure you i am not mixing up judaism with islam.
    and you missed my point about israel. of course if you felt a need to go to israel for safety purposes any and all jews would be welcome there. my point is that very few american jews choose to be there because things are so much safer and more comfortable here. we can look over there and support the violence that the israelis perpetrate against the palestinians because of the violence that is done to the jews throughout time. we can look at that as the land God promised to us and we will throw out money at it, but it is our bomb shelter. we don’t actually want to live there! it is backwards and violent! let’s just save it until we need it! the fact of the matter is that there are people who live there on both sides of the argument and people dying there on both sides.
    and i am not a denier. i know what my grandparents went through. my grandfather played a major part in the polish resistance. i have a picture on my wall of my grandfather with Menachem Begin. having a state of israel would not have prevented the holocaust from happening. there are genocides going on all over the world all time. the problem is apathy. the problem is that people tolerate violence and if we don’t have to see the actually killing, we just don’t care. let me be clear: i don’t support the palestinians, but i also don’t support the israelis. i find it funny that you sign your comment here “shalom”. there is no peace where there is violence. wasn’t it Einstein who said you can’t simultaneously work for peace and prepare for war?

    Tova

  12. samasthiti says:

    As a self hating non Jew….I think YC should continue with her thought provoking boyfriend.

  13. laksmi says:

    sistah suzin, once again coming through…

  14. samasthiti says:

    Yes. Let’s all continue to support the thinking mind.

  15. samasthiti says:

    Wow, Laks. I think I need to call you to talk about “your bigotry and hatred of the people of Israel and the rest of us Jews”….I can’t believe I didn’t notice this before.

  16. laksmi says:

    suuuz, please do call me and see if you can rehabilitate me. That is, if you don’t find me too abhorrent to speak to.

  17. DiVAS says:

    Jeeez, laksmi, I suggest you go to rehab.:)

  18. samasthiti says:

    As a non hating Jew, but self hating member of the human race I can help you. I can help rhabilitate you. I can make you stronger and faster.I think I can reasonably say that in spite of your unfortunate and hateful remarks about a people and ethnic group that has survived in spite of such continued and unremitting hate, YC and I both forgive you in the spirit of the New Year, and we hope you now have a wake up call to rehink your bigotry and hatred of the people of Israel and the rest of the Jews.

  19. samasthiti says:

    I forgot to sign that….

    Love,
    Auntie Boobie

  20. laksmi says:

    well, thanks Aunt Boobie. I’ll try to be rehabilitated, but I just can’t seem to quit playing this banjo here on my porch.

  21. laksmi says:

    unremitting, unremitting, unremitting hate hate hate! ahhh. I feel better now. (oh, wait–CONTINUED and unremitting; now that’s a little excessive)

  22. sally says:

    Please forgive me my ignorance and my (blossoming) atheism, but if you believe that your God is benevolent, why would He grant that land to just one people? What happens to all the other people… what would He think of all the violence?

  23. YC says:

    Sally – my understanding of the facts is that the palestinians are the ones who see the holy land as a mutually exlusive thing. I am pretty sure that israel has given land to the palestinians in an attempt to compromise. Essentially, we were BOTH always on the land, but under britain’s rule. It was only when britain left that the fighting as we know it today broke out.

  24. laksmi says:

    dang british. they seem to cause fighting wherever they go.

  25. BeBe says:

    Thanks, L and S, for admitting that I am right. The best you could do was to corrupt my screen name. You have nothing substantive to say.

    BeBe

  26. BeBe says:

    YC,

    I just found this great site for Jewish history, BCE. It shows, inter alia, the longevity of the history in the Middle East. It is a free course given by the Jewish Studies Department at Rutgers discussing the intersection of the Bible and archeology with an excellent timeline, etc. You can find it and sign in for the course at jewishstudies.rutgers.edu. Your two boys might be interested in the time line.

    BFF,

    BeBe

  27. samasthiti says:

    I don’t admit to anything except that you have no sense of humor.

  28. Cody Pomeray says:

    You guys need to learn to never wind up a nutty Jew about Israel.

    And this is coming from a long-time lapsed Jew who spent a summer in Israel and has strong feelings towards it.

    First off, the US and Brits gave the Jews Israel for strategic reasons, not for moral reasons. It’s a military base to keep the oil countries in line.

    Secondly, Israel ceded their moral authority long ago. Killing innocents is killing innocents whatever the justification.

    Thirdly, that land is a significant base for all three of the Abrahamic religions – old temple, dome of the rock and church of the sepluchre (sp?). It should belong to no one. Jerusalem should be like Vatican City and the UN should move there. seriously.

    Finally, Lauren you cannot be slagged off as a bad Jew for questioning the politics of your people. The religion is about your relationship with your god. People, politics and institutions always trying to get in the way of right living.

  29. BeBe says:

    Now that’s the ticket! The UN can take over Israel and solve all of the world’s problems. After Iran and the US become best friends, Osama Bin Laden is elected President, and peace reigns in the universe. Then there will be the dawning of the Age of Aquarious!

  30. Cody Pomeray says:

    I thought we were already bestest friends with Iran? I mean, we already emptied out our treasury and killed 3,800+ of our kids just to take out their #1 rival and give them complete control over the region.

    but then again, what’s wrong with a few kids dying just so we can pretend to own a piece of desert? it’s not like we’re all going to die anyway or anything.

    get a grip Bebe. we’re all humans. we all suffer. we all die. stop playing the my-people-are-better-than-your-people game.

  31. BeBe says:

    Huh? What are you smoking?

  32. BeBe says:

    I suggest you direct your future attentions to Myanmar.

  33. (0v0) says:

    Bebe. What an interesting comment.

    The reason you can’t see what Cody sees is that you’re trapped in a more primitive level of understanding. Seriously. To Cody’s experience, we’re all in this together and the priority is relationship. To yours, we’re locked in an “us” vrs. “them” struggle and the priority is being on top. Your MO is violence of thought and word and god knows what else.

    Me and YC are somewhat between you and Cody, developmentally speaking. Cos we still get defensive for our friends.

    Might I recommend the practice of yoga?

  34. Cody Pomeray says:

    ovo,

    thank you but you’re way too kind to me. I’m still stuck in the non-devotional vs. devotional paradigm. I tend to throw out the good with religion as well as the bad. I’m a bad bhakti.

    What bebe doesn’t know is that a 17 year old Cody didn’t want to leave Israel. It pains me to think ill of the place, but I can’t truck with militarism or violence.

  35. skelly says:

    Sorry didnt mean to cause all the problems in Israel, darn us Brits we should all be thoroughly smacked and sent to bed without pudding

  36. Carl says:

    First off, the US and Brits gave the Jews Israel for strategic reasons, not for moral reasons. It’s a military base to keep the oil countries in line.

    What a steaming heap of bullshit! Israel was pieced together of a few feisty kibbutzers, some post-genocide Jewish refugees and some hardcore Zionists that had the gumption to make their little dream happen. The English were against the whole fucking thing from the start. They provided weapons, equipment, training and troops — TROOPS — to the already established arabic nations. The U.S. provided virtually nothing and made a show of such until after the Israelis got themselves put together. Even then, the U.S. was more about easing tension with the Soviet Union than about approving of a new, free nation.

    The biggest point of contention surrounding the Jewish state would seem to be that no state of any sort existed there when they arrived. The kibbutzers had been buying small parcels of real estate from non-arab, non-resident landowners and setting themselves up. The resident Palestinian arabs that typically lived in small villages or nomadic tribes tried to force them out unsuccessfully and caused lots of nasty feelings, at least among themselves. When war broke out a lot of those Palestinians left for Lebanon where they are entirely disenfrachised. The Israelis won’t allow them back. They had no nation before the founding of Israel and they have no nation now. They’ll probably never return to their homeland or have a country, all thanks to the graciousness of Israel’s unremitting, ruthless policies that exclude the Palestinians merely because they feared war and upheaval and left their homes.

    Jewish culture and religion have a place there and so do arab culture and religion. The first Jewish settlers bought their way in. Israel was built around purchased land that the poorer arabs NEVER could have afforded to buy when they lived there. Nobody will have any peace in the Middle East until THIS issue is put to rest. The Jews bought some land and then accumulated more through the wars with Egypt and Syria. The displaced Palestinians didn’t have “legal” ownership of their own land and hadn’t the means. European Jews were dealt a raw hand during the ’30s and ’40s but the Palestinians got a similar raw deal too FROM ISRAEL.

    I have no idea what any of this thread is about. It sure is fun to spout though.

  37. BeBe says:

    Carl, regarding your post. Let me amplify.

    In or around 1918, my paternal grandmother (a widow and an immigrant from Russia) with her mother and three children (the oldest, my father – then about 8) travelled from New Jersey to what was then Palestine to live on a moshav (a socialist version of the communist kibbutzim). When my grandma and group arrived, they sadly learned that the moshav had been pillaged and burned down, and so I believe they settled in the area around Tel Aviv. They were very poor. My grandmother was a seamstress. She couldn’t survive economically because there wasn’t enough money for people to have dressmakers in this frontier area.

    They returned to the US in a year — that dream squelched – just as later the dream to have my father complete medical school was later trampled by the Nazis. And so we are all here — Americans and Jews — from educators to hospital administrators to lawyers to psychologists to investigators to yoga teachers and bloggers– all writers. No doctors on this side of the family.

    As you imply, in 1948, the arabs weren’t forced out of the land that is now Israel. They left of their own volition. Some arabs stayed and they still live in Israel, not in camps. Having made their choices, all of those who date back to 1948 and their offspring live with the consequences. So does my family live with the consequences of its history — which is why I have provided it.

    Unfortunately, the arab nations don’t want their sisters and brothers to come live with them. They are averse to taking in those who voluntarily fled from Israel. While Israel has taken in millions of the oppressed from the Soviet Union, Ethiopia, and many other nations and has provided a refuge for the homeless of the Holocaust, the arab nations have failed and refused to support their brothers and sisters.

    You say, “European Jews were dealt a raw hand during the ’30s and ’40s but the Palestinians got a similar raw deal too FROM ISRAEL.” Please tell me that you are not referring to the Holocaust as merely “a raw hand” and that you are not equating Israelis to Nazis.

    Finally, in answer to your confusion, this all started because of Lauren’s musings about her Rabbi’s sermon on Rosh Hashanah a couple of blog entries back. She followed up in this thread after learning a lesson. I’m sure the reactions of those on her blog have been a real eye opener to her.

  38. Carl says:

    Having made their choices, all of those who date back to 1948 and their offspring live with the consequences.

    This is a hardened and despicable way of thinking. Anyone that thinks this way of the situation deserves whatever non-peace they get.

    …the arab nations have failed and refused to support their brothers and sisters…

    The people that were displaced, whether voluntarily or otherwise, belong to the place they belong to. Those Palestinians were neither modern enough nor educated enough to make wise decisions about fleeing or staying when they were faced with the conflict. Merely assigning them to their foreign arab “brothers and sisters” for care and dismissing them for not understanding consequences is deeply cynical. This also is quite despicable.

    To equate Israelis to Nazis is to equate a nation to a political party. Apples to oranges. You can argue the reasons why the Palestinians should not have left their homes but you can’t argue that Israel continues to deny those people rightful access to the homeland of their forebears. To do so is to press point that would suggest Isael also has no rightful place in the region.

    Perhaps Lauren’s eyes have been opened but I suggest it’s not due to your help. One might hope that you open your own eyes and discover some humility and humanity. The egoism and ignorance that have pervaded this situation have not brought anyone closer to a peaceful coexistence and have only served to keep open wounds open.

  39. cranky housefrau says:

    yeah, Lauren, i hope you learned your lesson. don’t express your opinions if they differ from what the leaders say your opinions should be. they will ex-communicate you or take away your priviledges or something. and definitely don’t dissagree with big sister Bebe, she will beat your ass. hush up Lauren! just let Bebe speak for you!

  40. Cody Pomeray says:

    carl,

    as always, I will defer to your greater grasp of history and amend my statement to:

    “First off, the US and Brits continue to provide economic and military support to Israel for strategic reasons, not for moral reasons. It’s a military base to keep the oil countries in line.”

    and bebe, you want to slander us but you fail to grasp our perspective (sorry if anyone disagrees with this perspective). we’re yogis. we look towards those things that unite rather than divide us as humans. it’s not out of ignorance or anti-semitism, it’s out of a positive desire for self-knowledge and non-violence. don’t project your anger and need for victory on us.

  41. Middle Eastener says:

    Generally, I avoid blogs but after reading this whole thread I feel compelled to make a few observations.
    Carl, your first 2 ½ paragraphs were historically correct. However, most of the things beyond that are a revisionist perceptions and/or incorrect interpretations. If you think this was a matter of the rich making Aliyah to what would become Israel-then think otherwise. These were people who had suffered in Europe from the hand of Hitler. Most were happy if they had something on their backs. The accounts of their monies being taken from them is legend. I believe it was North American Jewry who gave greatly so that Israel might become a reality if the munitions could reach them without being discovered & destroyed by Britain.
    The Palestinians were given the opportunity to stay or leave. For whatever political reasons they had or the fact that surrounding states and/or Arabs wrongly conveyed promises to them that they reneged upon, they left. It is because the surrounding Arab states started camps and would not let them into their own countries they were initially used as a pawn. Once the non-assimilation of the “Palestinians” occurred the perpetuation of the “refugee problem” commenced and has lasted for sixty years. I have seen some of these deserted houses in 1977. I have also seen almost beautiful houses about 1 mile from the water fenced in. On the other side of the fence with a little separation are the refugee tents one after another in a poor terrible community despite seeing TV antennas next to them. In the water was a sunken ship from one of the older wars and an Arab’s yacht who I believe was involved with that country’s government over 125 feet or more. It was quite a contrast. For so many years this was a PR fight that could have easily been resolved but some Arabs felt it needed to be perpetuated at the cost of the Palestinians. I think this a little different then the “ruthless policies that exclude the Palestinians perpetrated by Israel” you speak of in your third paragraph.
    Go to the site Beebe gave and historically you will see who first dwelt on the Land. You seem to feel, that we have truly increased the size of land due to wars. I personally was in Yamit the year before it was turned back to Egypt. So much land has been given back in the hopes of peace. I have now come to the conclusion that Peace for Land” is a failed policy. What has it accomplished? Not even a morsel of peace can truly be traced to this policy. To say if given all the land in one area would resolve the problem and bring peace is fallacious. I can not believe it. Columbia University heard President Ahmadinejad today in his usual obfuscatory way not comment on the truth or falsity of his wanting the destruction of the State of Israel. But if you listen intently as someone commented to me today he doesn’t answer because he does not recognize the state of Israel. Its existence should not be assumed in his statements. In the end it his believe that the people of the area will all vote for the existence of the Palestinian state and the Jewish state will then no longer exist since the Jews will be outvoted. Doesn’t this seem similar to Hamas’ constitution and purpose?

  42. Middle Eastener says:

    Generally, I avoid blogs but after reading this whole thread I feel compelled to make a few observations.
    Carl, your first 2 ½ paragraphs were historically correct. However, most of the things beyond that are a revisionist perceptions and/or incorrect interpretations. If you think this was a matter of the rich making Aliyah to what would become Israel-then think otherwise. These were people who had suffered in Europe from the hand of Hitler. Most were happy if they had something on their backs. The accounts of their monies being taken from them is legend. I believe it was North American Jewry who gave greatly so that Israel might become a reality if the munitions could reach them without being discovered & destroyed by Britain.
    The Palestinians were given the opportunity to stay or leave. For whatever political reasons they had or the fact that surrounding states and/or Arabs wrongly conveyed promises to them that they reneged upon, they left. It is because the surrounding Arab states started camps and would not let them into their own countries they were initially used as a pawn. Once the non-assimilation of the “Palestinians” occurred the perpetuation of the “refugee problem” commenced and has lasted for sixty years. I have seen some of these deserted houses in 1977. I have also seen almost beautiful houses about 1 mile from the water fenced in. On the other side of the fence with a little separation are the refugee tents one after another in a poor terrible community despite seeing TV antennas next to them. In the water was a sunken ship from one of the older wars and an Arab’s yacht who I believe was involved with that country’s government over 125 feet or more. It was quite a contrast. For so many years this was a PR fight that could have easily been resolved but some Arabs felt it needed to be perpetuated at the cost of the Palestinians. I think this a little different then the “ruthless policies that exclude the Palestinians perpetrated by Israel” you speak of in your third paragraph.
    Go to the site Beebe gave and historically you will see who first dwelt on the Land. You seem to feel, that we have truly increased the size of land due to wars. I personally was in Yamit the year before it was turned back to Egypt. So much land has been given back in the hopes of peace. I have now come to the conclusion that Peace for Land” is a failed policy. What has it accomplished? Not even a morsel of peace can truly be traced to this policy. To say if given all the land in one area would resolve the problem and bring peace is fallacious. I can not believe it. Columbia University heard President Ahmadinejad today in his usual obfuscatory way not comment on the truth or falsity of his wanting the destruction of the State of Israel. But if you listen intently as someone commented to me today he doesn’t answer because he does not recognize the state of Israel. Its existence should not be assumed in his statements. In the end it his believe that the people of the area will all vote for the existence of the Palestinian state and the Jewish state will then no longer exist since the Jews will be outvoted. Doesn’t this seem similar to Hamas’ constitution and purpose?

  43. laksmi says:

    see who first dwelt on the land? Wow, we’re all in trouble if that’s how we’re doing things. Get your gun.

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